First no-code low-code studios in Poland - interview with Archman founder Marcin Kowalski

Kamil: Hi, this is Kamil Tarczyński, and welcome to another episode of our podcast Just No Code. Today, we have a special guest, Marcin Kowalski, who will introduce himself shortly. The main theme of today's episode will be the first No Code studies in Poland, how we conduct these studies, what will happen during them, and what Marcin does. And so on, and so forth. I don't want to reveal everything just yet, because I think we will touch on several very interesting topics about no-code, how it functions in Poland, who the representatives are, and about the aforementioned studies. So, without further ado, Marcin, welcome.

Marcin: Hello, Kamil, it's nice to participate in such an event. Yes, I am the CEO of Archman company. Archman has been a project for over 15 years. We specialize in implementing Low-Code and No-Code platforms. Not only implementing, actually, but also producing. We provide the Navigator system, which is a Low-Code system, and for 3 years, Navigator 365, which is a No-Code platform. So that's where I stand regarding platforms.

Beginning of the Archman company

Kamil: Ok, great. We will talk more about what you do at Archman, but you also represent the higher economic and computer science school in Krakow.

Marcin: Yes, it turns out that I am also the chancellor at this university, so it's kind of a dual function between Archman and the university. It gives us the ability to actually do quite practical studies in terms of computer science. Until now, it has mainly been computer science, known mainly for training programmers. However, for a year, we have been thinking aloud about how to tackle the no-code topic because it is becoming increasingly popular, and in a moment, we might talk about how this idea was born because it did not appear overnight but has been germinating in the minds of colleagues and mine for a long time.

Kamil: Sure, that's great. So we know who you are, and I would like to break it down into two separate parts, two separate stories. I know they are very closely intertwined, but you mentioned a very interesting thing. We know that no-code itself is not a new idea, as rapid app development and such concepts have been on the market since the 80s or even earlier, though I don't remember the exact dates. However, it has started to gain attention recently, so where did Archman come from? What background do you have that led you to start this company? Can you share a bit of your history?

Marcin: Sure. Listen, we founded the company in 2007, so it's even more than 15 years now. The first projects were purely IT projects. We even started more from analytics because we implemented data warehouses, controlling systems, budgeting in quite large companies. We started with the Wieliczka Salt Mine, but later there were companies like Tauron, Axel Springel, and more media-related ones. Interestingly, if we talk about the media team, we also have Virtual Poland, ZPR Media, so quite a lot of cool brands. Those projects were heavily developer-oriented, which kind of bothered us, because every time, with each new project, we had to start from scratch with tools and build something from the ground up.

So we decided to create a platform, and what's interesting is that we initially thought we would create a product that would solve all problems, meaning we would only need to configure it for the client, but in reality, we would carve out most of the applications the client would want on this product. And so, Navigator was born. It's a very cool platform, but it's so extensive, with so many settings, that today it's hard for anyone to learn it well enough to say they understand and know it perfectly. However, for someone from the outside, it would be difficult to learn. The recent years have been about figuring out how to create a similar platform that is simpler and more intuitive for them.

Marcin: Exactly, initially, those terms you use, like rapid application development... we later recognized and said, wait a minute, our platform is exactly that, so we started to market it as such. Then there were further developments, truly about low-code, no-code development, citizen development. So now, we indeed fit into this trend, but it was very organic. We started with a need and responded with LEGO bricks, from which we later assembled specific projects for clients.

The Challenges and Evolution in Designing the System

Marcin: It's always challenging. It generally always creates problems, and neither the company wanted those problems, so usually, it was just about making do with the contract. We provided access to the sources, but we always maintained them.

Kamil: It's problematic. Agreed. Super, but tell me, when you had deployed this client and launched it at the client's site, in that first version of your solution, could they also build on it themselves, or was it a ready-made solution that you had available for your team, from which you built, and the client just had a ready-made solution that you developed, or did it also work in such a way that they could have their citizen developers who could enter and change something?

The Evolution of the System and Client Involvement

Marcin: Very good question, and I'll tell you this, initially, it evolved in such a way that we allowed clients to access everything right away. However, it wasn't so simple, which is why, for example, working on a form required... a bit of what I'd call pseudo-IT knowledge. That's why it was a low-code system because some instructions were written either in JavaScript or SQL, so it still required some competence. However, processes, processes were something that clients very quickly took control of themselves. They made all those flows new, changed them, etc.

Marcin: Because, you know, at the end of the day, we want our system to be liked, not to have our people called for every little thing. Later, we wanted them to do more and more things themselves, like forms, lists, and dashboards. So we were always thinking about how to make it even simpler and more intuitive for them.

Kamil: And that's when you launched Navigator 365.

The Decision to Build a New Platform

Marcin: Yes, that was a key moment for our company's development because it started about four years ago, maybe even five now, because we sat down with the guys from production and asked ourselves whether we wanted the old product, the Navigator, to evolve towards no-code, or did we want to build a new platform from scratch, without any of those limitations? And we decided to build from scratch. Of course, with all the knowledge, experience, everything that was good in the first system, but this new one is built on a completely new technology stack. It's a product for years to come, so... Yes, maybe today there are fewer implementations of it than the older one, but we already feel its huge potential.

Kamil: OK, so you're already communicating it as a platform that is a no-code platform, to which anyone can come and build from those blocks. They don't need to have that IT knowledge, right?

Marcin: Exactly. You know, there's a fine line between no-code and low-code. Of course, if we're dealing with a programmer, even in our new no-code product, they can spread their wings. These are platforms that are no-code first. But if you have programming skills, then go ahead.

Kamil: Let loose, as they say.

Marcin: You can do very advanced things. However, interestingly, for us now, it's important to focus on the person who does not have that technological background.

The Importance of No-Code for Non-Programmers

Marcin: Exactly, we target those who can't program, aiming to enable them to do absolutely a lot. Not everything they might dream of, but almost everything.

Internal Tools vs. External Solutions

Kamil: OK, so your platform is more for building internal tools, for use within a company, rather than for creating SaaS, e-commerce, marketplaces, and such. It's a tool that allows us to build things inside an organization. How do you view solutions like Microsoft's Power Platform, or tools like Retool, which also aim to build internal tools? Given you're a Polish company, competing with Microsoft is challenging. It's hard to compete with Microsoft, Google, or anyone else on that scale. So, how do you position yourselves against them, and how do you view this from your perspective?

Competition and Unique Position in the No-Code Market

Marcin: That's a very good question. Interestingly, we were at a conference in Düsseldorf in May this year. It was strictly a Microsoft conference, so there were mainly Power Apps, Power Automates, the entire Power platform. People approached us and one of the first questions was, what's different or what's unique compared to the Power platform? I'll tell you this, the space for citizen developers is so vast that one tool is not enough. There are so many niches. Talking about the Power platform, which is strictly for internal stuff, and still, there are things you can do better on the Power platform. We might even recommend, do it in Power Apps. However, there are things that are evidently easier and faster to do with us. At the end of the day, especially in cloud infrastructure, it doesn't really matter whether it's done on this or that. What's important is that it's good, that the clients are satisfied.

Kamil: And that it works, simply.

Marcin: And that it's cost-effective. So, we're not at all afraid of Power Apps because there are scenarios where our system performs better. And it's way simpler.

Kamil: Not everyone uses Microsoft's solutions daily.

Process Design and UX

Marcin: Yes, but you know, I think Microsoft largely dedicated this platform to developers. They say it's a low-code solution. You have a lot of complexities, you just juggle that account. However, from the very beginning, we had that platform, and we wanted to make this one right off the bat for a person who is, you know, in HR, a controller.

Kamil: And about processes, because your software is mainly about building that whole software, those solutions based on processes, not focusing on the look, or how it will be correlated, what database will be underneath, but how the process looks. Of course, the database is still very important, but it's more about simply building a given process, how it will be handled, rather than what it will look like or something in that dessert.

Marcin: Absolutely. Today, these are the two skills that are mega important for us. First is designing the process, because paradoxically, it's not that simple. Making a process where people in a large organization find themselves is a challenge. So, make a process, but the second issue is making an application that... that will be reasonably intuitive. So, that spearhead of design, I'm not talking about design in a way that everything has to be super color-coordinated, but to avoid chaos, not too many crayons, having the right buttons in the right place. And those are competencies that are absolutely non-technical. I would say, developers don't have a clue about it either. Like...

Kamil: I always admit to that, if I had to create the design of an application, people would want to gouge their eyes out if they started using those applications, so yes, I totally agree, when I start sitting down to program, I always say, give me something to base it on, how it will look, because you will cry, and I am not responsible for that.

Marcin: No, that's indeed a concept... However, there are many people for whom this design is their ace. And they have been somewhat underutilized until now. I mean, they could design the app's design, but in the end, a developer had to do it. And today, I think the space for those people is incredible. Not to mention that you can sort of buy the design, you can buy some ready-made solutions on the internet.

Kamil: Also, you can very much spy on many solutions quite simply, see how they look and base on them.

Marcin: Exactly. But you know, I still think about these things because... we look, we now observe how our clients build these applications and there's definitely a difference, a total difference. There are applications you immediately want to use, as if we're looking from the side, and there are applications like, oh, massacre, don't go there because you won't do anything anyway. So we think, darn, how to teach these people to make these applications, also, to be UX-wise, effective. And that's a challenge, you know, because... Challenge with processes is one thing, and the other is just that.

Kamil: Super, and you say, this tool started to emerge for you 4 years ago. So it's been a while. So if you could talk a bit about that, because you also started mentioning that when you started showing this tool, then various people started asking about it. How does it look, can someone learn from it. You are also the chancellor at the Higher School of Economics and Computer Science in Krakow. So if you could tell us a bit about how this idea emerged about starting such studies, which we will talk about in a moment. But how did you come to it.

Navigator Academy Development

Marcin: Listen, it was like this, when we came back from Lisbon, we made such a summary of that event and decided that we have to go towards something like an academy. We named it the Navigator 365 Academy later. We recorded a series of episodes, actually similar to what you have done with Bubble. It can be gone through by oneself, but we decided to also reach out to an environment that was a bit of a mystery to us, namely the environment of developers. Because while we knew that people outside IT, or outside the sphere of programming, they would receive it well because all kinds of initiatives that they don't depend on developers, for them are ok. However, developers reacted differently. Most of those with experience approached it very positively. Basically, they said, alright, evidently, it shortens work, especially on simpler projects. However...

Marcin: ...but we had many discussions in Lisbon, Düsseldorf, later in London with developers. And most of these conversations were very cool, but there were also discussions like... "Okay, let me tell you about a project I had, a complex logistics project, and I'm curious if you could do it." And we said, "Well, that's not the point, that these platforms replace 100% of custom projects, but that they replace some part of it. We're not arguing whether it's 70% or 80% or 50%, but some part. In simpler projects, you can definitely push through." But we returned to Krakow and said, "Let's focus on the university, on computer science students, and see how they receive it." These were third-year students, so quite experienced in what can be done, what's hard, what's easy in programming. During day-long workshops, we asked them to create an application on this platform. And today we made a survey. And it was super cool in terms of what can be further done in studies. Because they all said yes. We want to learn such platforms. Moreover, they regret that there were no such classes. We were always taught how to reinvent the wheel from scratch, and no one showed us that this is ready, this is ready, this is ready, and you should just use it. So we thought that postgraduate studies are one element, but we also want to promote no-code more, to show platforms of this type on regular first and second-degree studies.

Kamil: OK, super. So for now, just to let all listeners know. A bit of information that at the Higher School of Economics and Computer Science in Krakow, the first postgraduate study program on no-code programming on various commercial platforms, not just Microsoft but commercial ones like Bubble, Webflow, or Navigator 365 from Archman, has been launched. Where we will teach these kinds of things, how to become a no-code developer, how to use these tools daily. The program of studies is much wider because we will also teach about UX, UI, how to acquire the basics of app design, topics concerning the entire life cycle of an application, concerning the security of applications, a comprehensive knowledge in a nutshell about how to start creating applications using no-code tools. No-code is not just about clicking together an application and forgetting about everything else. It has to look good, be secure, we need to know its purpose of life, etc. Marcin, could you tell us what students can expect from this course?

Marcin: You've already touched on very important programmatic elements. After our pilot, we saw that we could show our tool, which shows a certain area of no-code. But we were absolutely aware that it was just a window. We knew we would be looking for, actively seeking other partners and companies. Among others, we managed to reach out to you, who will fill in the remaining... missing gaps. But we focused from the beginning on making it absolutely practical studies. From the start, maximum tools. Theory, if at all, only the most essential, I'll talk about an aspect that's super important theoretically. But mainly it was about tools, like Bubble as the top platform for building all kinds of applications today. It's mainly good for SaaS, B2C types of stuff as you have in your portfolio on the website. Our platform is more for intranet, for such heavy, complicated purchasing, sales, logistics processes etc., but mainly closed within the company. There's also Webflow, a tool for building websites, I would say, on steroids compared to the popular WordPress. Yes, and here it's worth adding that this course will be conducted by ZOO Agency, a company that specializes in this tool and has mastered it. So, listen, that's also valuable because it's so, we pulled the first string. We found, with collective efforts with people from SEI. You recommended people here from ZOOI Agency. And again, for listeners, it's immense value, that they learn from real high-level specialists in a given tool. So we have from Bubble SEI, we have from Webflow ZOOI. We have us, when it comes to intranet stuff. AI couldn't be missing, nor could chat GPT. Here we have people who have long cooperated with SEI, the university. They teach programmers, but I'd say AI is also going very strongly in our column. AI exploration has been conducted in a heavily programming manner because it was mainly done in Python, you know... writing those scripts. Now these platforms are such that you really don't need to write a gram of code. Take chat GPT, which is currently usable by everyone. and it's very easy to also use its capabilities through API, which will also be in the university's curriculum, how to use API to connect our no-code applications, when even these platforms don't offer something, to easily connect to a third-party solution and use it. As with all traditional applications, which often utilize external capabilities of other platforms or products. And you see, you brought up the API topic, which was also mega important from the very beginning, that today you can't create a platform that is an isolated island. Everything integrates with everything. Here we have... for example, payment gateways, when we want to use przelewy24 or PEIU or anything else. Integration in every traditional approach, every traditional solution or no-code is built using API.

Marcin on the Importance of Integration and Project Management

Marcin: Exactly. Despite each of these platforms having its own thread about integration, we tried to further strengthen it. There's a subject dedicated solely to pure integration, primarily conducted on Zapier. But we're also open to various other platforms. It'll be up to the instructor to decide which tools they'll demonstrate. However, we want to signal that there are specialized, purely integrative tools and for people who build such applications to see that these tools exist and what they offer. And those theoretical subjects, which I mentioned, that are super important, are about managing the entire process of building an application, and later, maintaining it. We have some great, proven people here. Specifically, my colleague Bartek Moritz from VML, a fairly large marketing agency. They undertake large IT projects, the traditional kind. Interestingly, when it comes to management, no-code and code applications don't differ much. Even

Kamil: If we want to approach the subject professionally, unfortunately, what I've noticed in the no-code world is the thinking that a single freelancer can build a super solution.

Marcin: You can't. See, exactly. It's incredible. At some conference, I heard something interesting, I can't remember who said it, but it stuck with me. The speaker, addressing Citizen Developers, said, listen, you must realize that by creating no-code or low-code applications, you're exempt from programming. But you're not exempt from anything else regarding the engineering construction of applications. Thus, you must manage requirements. You must be aware that it's a project that also needs to be managed. It has certain stages, you need to skillfully approach various stakeholders, show them what the project will be about, manage their expectations. In the end, you have a first version, but then a second version, a third version comes along, and then you have version management. These are all things that could explode if not well thought out. These are also projects that concern so many groups that they need to be well managed.

Kamil: That's right, because often applications touch different stakeholders, among whom we need to reconcile to gather their interests, put them together, and place them in the application in some way. Again, this is a question that needs to be managed. The whole quality assurance, ensuring the application meets certain best practices, has a certain quality, is error-free, or even things we've already discussed, like all the designs. We might decide, OK, I'll do this page like this, that one differently

Kamil: But it won't have much to do with a professional approach to building applications. We even recorded an episode, by the way, about the process of creating applications, so I refer all interested to the previous episode of our podcast, where you can hear more about it. But this is really cool, what you said, because... It's also worth noting that citizen developers, it's great what you said, they are exempt from programming, but not from everything else. They might be exempt from everything else only at the POCA stage, a very early, small version of the solution they want to build, to show that it makes sense, has legs, investing in such a solution. But later, we approach it professionally, we approach the construction of something bigger, where... there will be different stakeholders, different users. So, there we need to think about many aspects, one person cannot do it.

Marcin on the Complexity of Projects and the Role of Developers

Marcin: Yes, definitely. You know, I've been thinking about what's most crucial in these... Because even when talking with Bartek, he said, you know, I'll modify the program in such a way to eliminate things like repository management. It's clear, since there's no code, there's no repository to manage.

Kamil: Yes, managing infrastructure.

Marcin: Right, right. However, interestingly, even in programming itself, the management model is changing a bit, moving away from more waterfall approaches towards Scrum, towards agile management. And this subject is interesting because it touches on agile management, requirement management, and actually everything important around the creation of applications. And he says, listen... what can we do without? We analyzed the program he implemented for developers and, in fact, only the repository was dropped. The rest turned out to be just as important for no-code studies.

Kamil on Changing Approaches to Application Building

Kamil: Exactly, so it shows us that management and a professional team approach, also simply the approach to creating applications. We will have fewer developers in our team, because we probably won't need that number of developers to move at the same or greater speed in creating the application. But still, a project manager, designer, quality engineer, developer... These are all people who are necessary at each stage of creating the application. Simply, the participation of clients or stakeholders for whom the application is being built is also crucial. It's not like someone will come to me and say, Kamil, listen, I've got a great idea, I need an application for managing holidays. And then the discussion starts, not that I immediately say OK, fine, listen, one week and it's done.

Discussion on the Potential and Challenges of No-Code

Kamil: One week and I'll click it out. It doesn't work like that, and it's good that we're talking about it and that it will also be on the studies, to show, to make aware that no-code is not a toy. A few years ago, maybe it was still like that, that no-code was indeed something for creating prototypes, where really, you know, then the infrastructure, performance, how it was built, how it worked wasn't important, so one person could sit down and show something. Now these are professional tools, in which Enterprise Grade applications are built, which operate, can handle hundreds of thousands of users, and of course, they can differ from applications written in Custom Code, because, well, Custom Code is still Custom Code and it will always be needed, but they don't have to differ. You can build great solutions on them, where users will use them and never wonder what the application was built with. Let's not ask such questions daily when using some application and it meets his requirements or just functionalities that a person expects.

Discussion on Online Training and Engagement in Learning

Kamil: It always depends on the person who starts learning something because you've probably also heard about that statistic that only about 12% of people complete online training for which they paid. So, it just shows that it always depends on us, how we learn something. Right? Because if you buy an online course but don't apply yourself to it, or even complete it, it's hard to expect that you'll have those skills and that you'll utilize them anywhere, in any way.

Marcin on Challenges and Dropping out of Studies

Marcin: You know, interesting statistic, I'll give you another one. For example, at our university, 30% of people drop out in the first semester. And for two reasons. First, they simply cannot pass the exams, and second, they just realized that they want to be programmers. And now, the second thing, programming in all of this is not such a big challenge. However, application development indeed requires a bit of talent, you need to have a vision, and we definitely can't teach that in postgraduate studies. Some people have it, and we just give them tools, right? And then they will realize themselves. However, some people don't have it, so what's the use if they learn these tools, as it may not be for them. But does that mean they shouldn't try? Probably not, everyone should give themselves a chance to try something.

Kamil on the Importance of Social Skills in Programming

Kamil: That's right, but what you said is something very interesting, that it's not just technical skills because programming over the years, programming itself has also evolved a lot, in my opinion. It's no longer the case that we can be a closed person in the basement, who doesn't like contact with people, and we'll be a great programmer. We can have great technical skills, but having great technical skills and building great solutions. In my opinion, there's a difference because to build great solutions, we need to be able to communicate with the team, with product users, to understand their needs. Being a good programmer is more than just being able to program well. In my opinion, now these also somewhat social skills, that we can talk to people and understand them, what they need, how to do it, see it in the simplest way.

Marcin on Education and the Role of Social Skills

Marcin: This is a broad topic, because at the university, we often have such discussions, what to teach these programmers so that they are good programmers. Paradoxically, sometimes they are things they don't want to learn. Like you have classes, for example, on the art of presentation, psychology classes. And really, look how important it is to also understand what stress is at all, my stresses, the stresses of team members. But it's also a matter of maturing, at a certain stage you mature to the fact that such social competences are important to you and you must have them, otherwise, you won't be a good developer. Maybe still as a programmer, you will be, but see, you even expand it, nobody gives me instructions on how I should write this code. I have to ask. I have to be vigilant, I have to be careful too how I write. And I have to communicate with other people.

Kamil on the Role of AI in the Future of Application Development

Kamil: Exactly, but that's very interesting what you mentioned, because I totally agree that AI will certainly do some things better than a person without any experience. However, someone has to tell AI to do it. Do you think it will function in a way that companies will just say, okay, let's get rid of these juniors, let's put more tasks on the shoulders of more experienced developers, optimize their work. Or will there simply be less demand for juniors, because fewer will be needed?

Marcin on the Importance of Juniors for the Industry's Future

Marcin: I think that's a temporary way of thinking. If I get rid of a junior, I won't have a senior later. Where will I get them from? It's great, and it's something many people forget, and it's something that comes up frequently at the university that people think we'll get rid of certain jobs, leave only seniors and mids, but who will be the mid and senior later if we don't hire these juniors, they won't come from anywhere.

Kamil on the Future of No-Code and AI

Kamil: Exactly. Marcin, I think we had a great conversation, an hour and 20 minutes, so we really covered a lot of topics from the history of your company, how you built the no-code solution, how you delivered being initially a traditional software house, sorry for the term traditional software house, but I hope we understand what I mean. How you came to offer this no-code solution your own platform, not through studies, where we will now teach future no-code developers about various tools the whole spectrum of how to approach building applications, through AI, the future, loads of topics, so do you want to add anything at the end of our conversation?

Marcin on the Importance of Education and Future Technology

Marcin: You know what? I'm just thinking. First of all, looking now, we've been talking for an hour and a half. It was a pleasure to participate in this conversation because you also have a nice approach in your company, or maybe these are your thoughts, probably both. So I'm happy that we could talk, and what? And probably as this project goes on, we'll have the opportunity to talk again.

Kamil: Yes, I think we'll definitely find some interesting topics to delve into deeper in the future because it seems to me that we only touched many topics briefly, and it would be worth dissecting them more thoroughly. So Marcin, thank you once again, it was also a great pleasure for me. See you soon in Krakow at the first classes and hear you again probably in another conversation. Thanks a lot. Thank you all for listening to our podcast, and hear you in the next ones.

Marcin: Thanks.